Episode 158
Finding a Good Estate Attorney - EP. 158
Today, we're diving headfirst into the nitty-gritty of estate planning with our special guest, Kristen Luce, Partner at Coughlin and Gerhart, LLP, who knows this stuff like the back of her hand.
Our episode kicks off with a casual banter that sets the tone for a relaxed yet informative discussion. Kristen shares her journey and passion for helping clients navigate the often murky waters of estate planning. Together we discuss how many people feel overwhelmed and hesitant to start their estate planning because, let’s face it, nobody wants to think about their mortality. But Kristen reassures us that it’s all about getting organized and taking proactive steps. We touch on the importance of having a good team in your corner—fee-only financial planners and attorneys who actually communicate and work together.
Together, we unravel the mystery of why having a solid estate plan is essential, especially when life throws curveballs your way. We tackle the common misconceptions that make people hesitant to seek professional help and why you should throw your trust into the hands of someone who knows what they’re doing (spoiler alert: it’s not always the first Google result).
Kristen explains how you should navigate the legal labyrinth of financial planning, ensuring you don’t end up in a pickle when it counts the most.
Takeaways:
- Ditch the Suits podcast is all about sharing financial insights that the industry prefers to keep hush-hush, helping listeners navigate their money matters like seasoned pros.
- The transition to Patreon is a game-changer, making past episodes accessible and ensuring you never miss out on new content, so hop on board!
- Estate planning isn’t a one-size-fits-all process; it’s crucial to work with an attorney who gets your unique situation and crafts a plan that truly reflects your wishes.
- Clients often struggle to get organized for estate planning, but with a solid questionnaire and guidance, the process can be smoother and less daunting than you think!
- Understanding the legal side of financial planning is essential, especially during tough times, as it helps to ensure your family’s stability and peace of mind in the future.
- Communication is key in estate planning; a good attorney listens to what’s important to you and explains things in plain English, avoiding the dreaded legalese.
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Ms. Luce joined Coughlin & Gerhart, LLP in 2007 and is a partner with the firm. She is chair of the firm’s Trusts & Estates Practice Group. Ms. Luce’s practice is concentrated in the areas of Estate Planning, Trust & Estate Administration, Guardianships, Adoptions, Litigated Estate Matters, and Real Estate. She practices in the firm’s main office, as well as the Owego branch office. She has been selected as a Rising Star among New York lawyers for Estate Planning from 2013 – 2018 by Upstate New York Super Lawyers magazine. In 2017 Ms. Luce was named in the 24th Edition of the Best Lawyers in America® in the practice area of Trust & Estates. Ms. Luce has been given this award every year since 2017 (for the Best Lawyers in America© for Trust & Estates).
Ms. Luce is a current member of the Broome County and New York State Bar Associations. She is a member of the New York Bar Association’s Elder Law and Special Needs Section. Ms. Luce previously served on the Board of Directors to the local American Automobile Association (AAA) Club. She is a past Co-Chair of the Broome County Bar Association’s Young Lawyers Committee. She served on the Board of Directors for the Mothers and Babies Perinatal Network (April 2008 – February 2016) and is a former member of the Owego Rotary. In 2014 and again in 2018 Ms. Luce was appointed by the Town Board of the Town of Binghamton to an interim position of Acting Town Justice.
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About Your Co-Hosts:
Travis Maus has been in financial services for over fifteen years. He is a Senior Wealth Manager and Chief Executive Officer at S.E.E.D. Planning Group. Travis also hosts the Unleashing Leadership Podcast, where he dissects some of his favorite books on leadership and how you can apply it to your business or life.
Steve Campbell has over a decade of industry experience and is a Senior Marketing Director at S.E.E.D. Planning Group. Steve also hosts the One Big Thing Podcast, an interview-style show meant to inspire and encourage 30 and 40-year-olds going through difficult seasons of navigating marriage, raising kids, and growing personally.
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:Welcome to Ditch the Suits podcast, where we share insights nobody in the financial services industry wants you to know about.
Speaker B:We're here to help you get the most from your money in life.
Speaker B:So buckle up and welcome to Ditch the Suits.
Speaker B:Hey, guys.
Speaker B:Steve Campbell from Ditch the Suits with a special announcement.
Speaker B:We've recently transitioned all of our episodes to Patreon.
Speaker B:We would encourage you to visit patreon.com you can search Ditch the Suits and subscribe to our channel.
Speaker B:If you are interested in any of our previous episode or seasons, they're now available on Patreon.
Speaker B:Get notifications for new episodes right in your inbox and never miss an episode.
Speaker B:Head to patreon.com and join our Ditch to Suits channel.
Speaker B:And the link is in the show notes.
Speaker A:On this podcast, we regularly are talking about vetting professionals and how to know if you have a competent advisor or advisors on, you know, a broader team.
Speaker A:Your cpa, your account or your attorney, your financial advisors, your investment people, your insurance people.
Speaker A:And a lot of people aren't really interested in financial advisors.
Speaker A:They're thinking, I should do this myself for a lot of reasons.
Speaker A:Sometimes it's because they just don't like having to take advice from people or they don't want to pay people.
Speaker A:I think that's a lot of times what it is.
Speaker A:Or they don't think they need them because, you know, I can Google, kind of like WebMD.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And Google never leads anybody astray.
Speaker A:There's no way you could find bad information on Google, as we've talked about before in previous episodes.
Speaker A:But I.
Speaker A:We want to take this conversation today and talk about the legal side of financial planning.
Speaker A:And we did a series a couple of episodes ago where we were talking to Jessica Blake, one of our wealth managers.
Speaker A:She talked a lot about estate planning.
Speaker B:And it was awesome.
Speaker A:And leading up to estate planning and into estate planning is a place where normally your attorney's gonna be involved to a pretty good degree.
Speaker A:And a lot of times people are kind of skipping that part.
Speaker A:We're maybe getting it wrong.
Speaker A:So the next couple of episodes, we're gonna focus on actually that piece.
Speaker A:Um, I think that that when you're thinking about stability with your family, that's one of the.
Speaker A:You don't really realize it all the time because normally you're dealing with attorneys when something really horrible has happened.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Whether you're being sued or suing somebody or somebody's passed away.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And you can't get at something that you need to get at or something like that.
Speaker A:And then all Of a sudden you're like, okay, now who do I get to help me?
Speaker A:And a lot of times it's going to be the attorney at that point.
Speaker A:But there's a lot that we can do to make that easier or possibly not even needed.
Speaker A:And that's what we're going to go over today.
Speaker A:And so we've got our.
Speaker A:Our guest with us today is Kristen Luce, who is an attorney, a partner, and a chair of her firm's trust and estates practice group.
Speaker A:And her practice focuses on estate planning, trust and estate administration, guardianship, adoptions, litigated estate matters, and real estate.
Speaker B:That's pretty good.
Speaker A:I'm trying, I'm reading from the script today.
Speaker A:I didn't want to get any of that intro.
Speaker B:This is, this is a big day.
Speaker B:We talked about it right before we came on, but Kristen is actually our first external guest in our four years of Ditch the Suits.
Speaker B:We had just Blake on, but she works with us every single day and she rocked it.
Speaker B:So if you want more information, go listen to those four episodes.
Speaker B: ty together and as we said in: Speaker B:I'm Steve Campbell.
Speaker B:I serve as our senior marketing director at Seed Planning Group.
Speaker B:Travis, a co host, is our CEO.
Speaker B:Seed is a fee only financial planning firm and this show is all about us bringing our collective consciousness, working with people every day to help you get the most from your money in life.
Speaker B:And so this episode, these few episodes we're going to do with Kristen, I think is going to be a lot of fun because Jess did a great job from a planner's perspective talking about the coordination that has to go into it.
Speaker B:And one of the things that came out of that conversation with Jess I thought was great is estate planning is challenging because it's like the one thing that happens when you're no longer here.
Speaker B:And so we had talked about in that series, like if you make a mistake with an investment or you claim something the wrong way, you might have time to fix it.
Speaker B:But estate planning is really hard for people to grasp the severity of doing it and doing it well because it most likely kicks in for the most part when you're no longer here.
Speaker B:And so I think this is going to be a great conversation we had just talking about from planners perspective by having Kristen, who's actually in estate planning and works with A firm and other attorneys from her perspective as a professional.
Speaker B:So, really excited about these few episodes we're going to get into.
Speaker B:Let's take a break to hear a word from our sponsor.
Speaker B:This episode is brought to you by the Unleashing Leadership Podcast.
Speaker B:Join Travis Moss, seasoned entrepreneur and business leader, on a transformational journey of leadership exploration.
Speaker B:In this thought provoking podcast, Travis shares his invaluable insights and experiences gained from two decades of managing diverse businesses, which includes small family enterprises, Fortune 500 companies, and his own successful startups.
Speaker B:Through candid storytelling in real life examples, he unveils the profound truth that success or failure ultimately rests upon a leader's ability to recognize and unleash the potential in others.
Speaker B:Start listening to the Unleashing Leadership podcast today, available on all major podcast platforms.
Speaker A:Yeah, so we're going to dive right into introducing Kristen.
Speaker A:And before we do, you know, we talk about having qualified people and we talk a lot of times with our firm when we talk about estate planning.
Speaker A:I think Jess talked about it in one of the episodes that we did with her about.
Speaker A:We have a list at the firm of attorneys that we've worked with that check the boxes.
Speaker A:As far as we're concerned, Kristen is one of those and she's been on it for a very long time.
Speaker A:So we're really excited to bring somebody that we've actually done a lot of work with, not just, I mean, we get requests all the time for people who want to be on the podcast.
Speaker A:And we're like, we don't have a clue who these people are and what, you know, do they do, what they actually say.
Speaker A:But with Kristin, we actually know her work and her firm pretty well and so we're really excited to have them.
Speaker A:So, Kristen, welcome.
Speaker C:I am so excited to be here today.
Speaker C:And quite honestly, estate planning is one of my favorite topics to talk about from a legal perspective.
Speaker C:So this is exciting.
Speaker A:Well, we're going to have a little bit of fun then.
Speaker A:So talk to us a little bit about you, though.
Speaker A:Your background, where you're at right now and, you know, so people don't have to take my word for it.
Speaker A:Your area of focus.
Speaker C:Yeah, so.
Speaker C:So at the firm here, I do a lot of trust in estate work and that includes like, estate planning.
Speaker C:And I'm sure we're going to talk about all the different aspects of, you know, what's included in that.
Speaker C:I also do estate administration.
Speaker C:So after people have passed away, whether it's winding up their trust or having to probate an estate, there's just different aspects of what happens when people pass away.
Speaker C:I'm very involved in that.
Speaker C:I also do some guardianship work.
Speaker C:So if we've got a situation where we've had an adult who was competent their life and all of a sudden lose competency for some reason, there's a whole court process that we have to go through to get a guardianship in place.
Speaker C:So I do some of that work.
Speaker C:I also have done adoptions over the years.
Speaker C:That's a really good day in court when you finalize those.
Speaker C:Those are a lot of fun.
Speaker C:And then I do real estate.
Speaker C:You know, often when you're dealing with an estate or after someone's passed away, you've got to sell the house.
Speaker C:And so I definitely have a whole real estate component to.
Speaker C:To what I do.
Speaker A:And you have a.
Speaker A:You have another little tiny wrinkle to your background, too.
Speaker A:Weren't you a judge for a while?
Speaker C:Yeah, I.
Speaker C:I was appointed and then elected for a period of time to the town of Binghamton.
Speaker C:I was the judge out there, so.
Speaker C:Okay, that was really interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:But I'm no longer a judge, you know.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So we don't have to call you, your honor.
Speaker A:We can just.
Speaker C:No, you do not.
Speaker C:No, no.
Speaker C:Kristen works.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Currently you're at Coughlin and Geart, which is a, A, A, A law firm that's based in Binghamton.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I think is the mail.
Speaker A:We, we.
Speaker A:We would call where you are.
Speaker A:Binghamton.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:New York.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Just so everybody knows, we have listeners from all over the country.
Speaker B:So Travis and I were originally from upstate New York, and we knew Kristen from being in the community in upstate.
Speaker B:So Coughlin and Geart is in Binghamton.
Speaker B:And before we even jumped into this, because we are going to have new listeners that follow Kristen and her journey, but are just checking out this first episode, I think I just want to help people understand.
Speaker B:Estate planning is one of those things that a lot of people don't know if they're doing it well.
Speaker B:And when we get call ins from people all over the country that are.
Speaker B:Some that have never addressed it and they're ashamed.
Speaker B:There are some that have just the basics and they think they're good.
Speaker B:There's some that are just confused on their options.
Speaker B:So I think as you talk through your areas of focus and what you do, I just want to give maybe a little bit of grace to the listener that tuned in today and may feel a little, you know, taken back, that they're not as prepared as maybe they should be.
Speaker B:You're just like everybody else.
Speaker B:So what we want to do, I think in these conversations with you is help our listeners understand what are their options, what can they do and what questions do they need to ask.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So keep going with the questions.
Speaker A:Yeah, but we're not doing that right now.
Speaker A:We're still talking about Chris.
Speaker A:We know we're going to learn more about Gearhart.
Speaker A:Tell us, you know, give us the 50 mile overview of Kaufmann.
Speaker C:Yeah, so you're, you're correct in that we're based out of Binghamton, New York, but we do have nine locations throughout upstate New York and northeastern Pennsylvania.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:We just opened another.
Speaker C:We have two offices down there.
Speaker C:We just opened one last week actually down in Honesdale, Pennsylvania.
Speaker C:So we're excited about that.
Speaker C:Yeah, we have 58 attorneys throughout those locations.
Speaker C:We're a full service law firm.
Speaker C:We do everything from litigation, municipal work, labor and employment, workers comp, and obviously trust in the state.
Speaker C:So in a business and banking group, they'd be upset I left them out.
Speaker A:You oversee the trust and estate department?
Speaker C:I do, yeah.
Speaker C:I chair that group.
Speaker C:So, yeah, just kind of provide some leadership insofar as marketing efforts, making sure that we're staying up to date on the latest changes in the laws or techniques, client relations.
Speaker A:Well, one of the things I've enjoyed about working when we have worked with Coughlin Gerhardt is some law firms you go to and the attorneys are all kind of in competition.
Speaker A:And you'll go to an attorney and you'll say, okay, I have a small business owner and they've got a business.
Speaker A:Maybe they even have some nonprofit stuff that they're doing.
Speaker A:Then they've got their estate plan.
Speaker A:Then they maybe, you know, have other things going on in their life.
Speaker A:And so we go and we say, okay, who's, who's the attorney that specializes in business and who's the attorney that specializes in litigation or who's the attorney that specializes in elder care or estate planning and some firms.
Speaker A:One person raises their hand and says, I do all of that, you know, and it's like, no, you don't.
Speaker A:Which, which one?
Speaker A:Who on your team can I talk to about this business issue?
Speaker A:If you're the estate person and what I like about Coughling Gerhart and every experience I've ever had at least is when we come to Coughlin Gerhardt and we say, hey, we have a client and here's the, the situation of it, we get connected with the person with the specialty that is best suited depending on the, you know, the intricacies of the issue.
Speaker C:Well, I think at our firm, we try to emphasize with our attorneys, and it definitely was my experience.
Speaker C:I kind of grew up in the firm, if you will.
Speaker C:I started right out of law school.
Speaker C:You're encouraged to get really good at one area of law.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Or a couple areas.
Speaker C:But we don't want to be dabbling in things that we don't truly understand.
Speaker C:So we definitely collaborate very well at our firm.
Speaker C:And, you know, it's something that we seek to do.
Speaker C:Especially if you're looking for the best interest for your client.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Me, with my limited knowledge in a certain area of law, really shouldn't be the person helping you if there's someone else here who's got, you know, a better background, better suited to fit that client's needs.
Speaker C:So we try to have a definite client focus with anything that we do here.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Well, that's one of the things Steve and I talk about all the time to our listeners is the idea that when you go and you work with somebody, you are looking for somebody who can work as part of a team, who is not afraid to say, I've got this other person that works at my firm or even a different company, but they're going to take care of you better than I can take care of you.
Speaker A:That's the sign of an ultimate professional.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That were a fiduciary.
Speaker A:You know, attorneys are fiduciaries in their own way with the work that they do.
Speaker A:And, you know, the duty of loyalty to a client is to say, you know, I'm not worried.
Speaker A:The duty of care.
Speaker A:I think it kind of.
Speaker A:It can be in either box, but you have a duty to decline to say, not my area of expertise, but this person over here is really good and they're going to help you.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:So where does your.
Speaker A:You're in the estate planning lane, mostly.
Speaker A:Where does that passion come from?
Speaker A:How did you get into estate planning?
Speaker A:Was it just okay, there was a job opening and I'll try it, or did you know that that's what you wanted to do?
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:So when I first started, you kind of get a exposure to many different areas at the firm.
Speaker C:You know, the thing I like about estate planning is it's a different kind of client that you're working with.
Speaker C:It's a.
Speaker C:It's a proactive client.
Speaker C:You know, as a lawyer, sometimes you come into a situation and you're doing the best you can on a really bad situation, and you can only get so many results that the law will let you obtain.
Speaker C:Whereas with the estate planning, the part that I really love is.
Speaker C:It's like a puzzle.
Speaker C:You know, you get to get in there, you get to figure it out and proactively put things in motion to obtain a better result for the client.
Speaker C:So I love that proactiveness to it.
Speaker C:And I also like how people focused it is.
Speaker C:So my day is, you know, quite a few appointments with a lot of different clients.
Speaker C:So you're, you're interacting with the public and, and having conversations and, you know, we'll get into this, I'm, I'm sure.
Speaker C:But if anyone tells you that estate planning is one size fits all and it's, you know, a cookie cutter process you should run because it's, you really have to find out what's important to the client and what their objectives are.
Speaker C:So there's a lot of those types of connections that you get to establish with clients.
Speaker A:I think one of the interesting things with the state, we don't talk about it a lot, but you've got state laws and every state is different.
Speaker A:So somebody.
Speaker A:We could talk about what we can do in New York, which is different than what we can do in Pennsylvania, which is different than what we do in Tennessee, which is different than what we would do in Florida.
Speaker A:Those are state laws, but you also have federal laws.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so there's, there's some rules at the federal level and then there's rules at the state level.
Speaker A:And you, you have to kind of dance between all of that and then sometimes you have people that are kind of spread out over states, multiple states, and you're trying to deal with that.
Speaker A:But then, like you said, everybody's life is unique.
Speaker A:And one of the things that, when I think about a good estate planning attorney, I mean, we've seen cookie cutter attorneys before that kind of have the template and everybody goes in the template.
Speaker A:And we know that because we get the drafts of the documents and we look at it and like, they forgot to cut and paste the right names and stuff into it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So you see a little bit of that.
Speaker A:But like, for an attorney, if you're going to be in the estate area, like you're saying, where you know everybody's situation is unique, you have to be open to the creativity and the artistry, let's say, of being an attorney, because you're really helping people solve problems.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You have people proactively coming to you and saying, kristen, this is what I'm worried about, or this is what I'm trying to achieve.
Speaker A:And then you help them figure out not just the most legal way to do it.
Speaker A:Obviously, it has to be legal, otherwise it's going to get blown up eventually.
Speaker C:But also, you know, with that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:A way that works for their situation.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, there's a lot of different ways to gift assets to a family member.
Speaker C:And I think also looking for efficient ways to do it for the client as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:So, yeah, I think that's what makes my job interesting for me.
Speaker C:Every client is unique and their situation is unique.
Speaker C:So getting to learn what those details are and then to come up with creative solutions that it's very rewarding.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:What do you think makes a good estate planning attorney?
Speaker A:Because I'm thinking of some work that.
Speaker A:That I had done with a client years ago with one of your predecessors at Coffinger.
Speaker A:I don't know if this attorney is actively working anymore, but.
Speaker A:Or practicing.
Speaker A:But I'm thinking of a message that she had sent to the client and the way that she addressed a particular issue.
Speaker A:And when I think about an attorney, an estate planning attorney, really being a good estate planning attorney is one of the things that I think about.
Speaker A:What do you think?
Speaker A:Before I get to say my spiel is, because I just want to see if we're on the same page.
Speaker A:What do you think makes a really good estate planning attorney?
Speaker A:Like, if you were a client, knowing what you know, what would you look for?
Speaker C:I think you want to find somebody who communicates well.
Speaker C:You know, I think anybody who goes to see a lawyer, you have those expectations of competency, and they're going to do it right.
Speaker C:But you want someone who can communicate with you and teach you what you need to know in a way that you can understand it.
Speaker C:And you also want an attorney who's listening to what's important to you.
Speaker C:So I think if you felt rushed or not heard those, those would be, you know, red flags or warning signs that it may not be a good fit.
Speaker A:So I had.
Speaker A:Had.
Speaker A:So we intercept this letter.
Speaker A:This.
Speaker A:This client had come, and I forget how they.
Speaker A:They got to us, but they had come to us and they had a letter that one of your attorneys had written to them about some planning that had been proposed to them from a financial advisor.
Speaker A:And the financial advisor was essentially trying to use your attorney to kind of support them selling the client an annuity as part of their estate plan.
Speaker A:And so the attorney had responded and was basically saying, you know, that's pretty inappropriate, and really advocating for the client about seeking a second opinion and trying to help them understand that that's.
Speaker A:That's not really estate planning.
Speaker A:They're just trying to Sell a product.
Speaker A:And I think that that's.
Speaker A:We've had situations where we've had what I think, you know, attorneys have done poor work.
Speaker A:And then we've had attorneys like this that just, you know, you can really trust that they're going to advocate for the client.
Speaker A:And I think attorneys, on the other hand, too, they're in the same situation where they're seeing other professionals and they're going ill.
Speaker A:Okay, you're making this really difficult for the client.
Speaker A:You know, like, we can tell that this is a.
Speaker A:In our industry.
Speaker A:And, you know, this podcast is actually about our industry.
Speaker A:We, we.
Speaker A:We want to you that it bridges into your work.
Speaker A:But in our industry, when you work for, like, an insurance company, they actually teach you to go out and find attorneys and get attorneys to partner with you in estate planning because it makes selling the large life insurances easier, because the attorney can be like, oh, of course you need an eyelet.
Speaker A:And, you know, let's put some life insurance in that.
Speaker A:And so the attorney writes the eyelet and the insurance agent gets the sale.
Speaker A:And like, nine times out of 10, they didn't really need to do that.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But it was for the sale.
Speaker A:So one of the things that when I look for an attorney and I'm looking for somebody, you know, for a client, I'm looking for somebody that we can really trust is not trying to sell them stuff that they don't need, but also somebody's trying to advocate for them and say, you know, that right there.
Speaker A:And not necessarily, well, I want to send you to my guy.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But somebody looking at it, just putting it in writing, and that was what was great about it.
Speaker A:The attorney actually put it in writing and said, these are the reasons why I don't think this is good for you.
Speaker A:And they did it.
Speaker A:Like you just said in plain English, like, it was easy to understand.
Speaker A:Okay, this might be the issue.
Speaker A:And it wasn't derogatory.
Speaker A:It was very polite, very professional.
Speaker A:But it got across.
Speaker A:I just thought it was fascinating to see that kind of advocacy.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, so we talked a little bit about attorneys.
Speaker A:There's definitely a difference between different attorneys.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:In different areas of specialty.
Speaker A:And I think that gets into that whole point about, you know, trying to make sure that, you know, we're advocating for the client and we're getting the right people on the right team in front of people.
Speaker B:And I was really hoping Kristin would Travis teed you up with the passion for estate planning.
Speaker B:I hope.
Speaker B:We were going to crack open your middle school yearbook and next Year picture is going to be someday, I hope to lead a trust in estate apart, because I feel like for consumers out there, especially when it comes to estate planning, you have so many different scenarios.
Speaker B:People that are afraid to pay somebody to do it, so they go online and they create a will.com or whatever it is.
Speaker B:And so there's a lot of misconceptions when it comes to attorneys.
Speaker B:And I think to Travis's question, what makes a good attorney?
Speaker B:We've talked with people that have trusted a professional sitting in front of them who claims they're working in their best interests, and they leave with things they don't really need, and they pay for things that they don't need to have.
Speaker B:And what that creates is a bad experience, a bad taste in their mouth where it's very hard.
Speaker B:Trust is one thing that once you lose it, it's very hard to get back.
Speaker B:And unfortunately, whether it's in your world or our world in the financial services industry, you're sometimes having to overcome what other professionals have done along the way, because you really are trying to help people today.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker B:And so even for those people out there that are trying to, wherever they live, find a good attorney.
Speaker B:Are.
Speaker B:Are there things that, like you said, communication would be helpful, like options, what just.
Speaker B:Just so that people have an idea of if they came to meet with somebody like you.
Speaker B:Like, what is typically.
Speaker B:Because this is interesting, like, what is a first meeting?
Speaker B:Like?
Speaker B:Is it just more of, like getting to know?
Speaker B:Is everything done in one meeting?
Speaker B:Is it a series of meetings?
Speaker B:What is your profession?
Speaker B:How have you matured?
Speaker B:How have you grown?
Speaker B:And if somebody came and sat with you just to give them an experience of what that should look like.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So up front, and I think this is really important for clients to kind of clue into is they need to know what the process is up front.
Speaker C:And if you can't gather that from the law firm you're talking to, you're probably talking to the wrong law firm.
Speaker C:Because all of us who do estate planning, there typically is a process.
Speaker C:So I appreciate the question.
Speaker C:Initially, I always send out to my clients a little questionnaire.
Speaker C:I want to know some family background, I want to know some asset information.
Speaker C:Estate planning is very asset focused.
Speaker C:And so I think to do a good job as an attorney, you definitely need to understand what you're actually planning with and for.
Speaker C:So I send that out to my clients in advance.
Speaker C:And then we have the first meeting where we'll talk through, you know, family dynamics, we'll talk through their assets.
Speaker C:I will Explain what happens when people pass away and especially with the assets that they have.
Speaker C:And, you know, we talk about whether it's going to pass in a probate way or a non probate way.
Speaker C:We talk about whether going through probate is, is appropriate in their situation, you know, or, or is it going to be such a process that, you know, maybe we should make plans to opt out of probate with a trust per se, or.
Speaker C:So we talk through those types of issues.
Speaker C:Usually by the end of that first meeting, I kind of have an idea of where we're going insofar as documents.
Speaker C:And then I tell my clients that I'm going to go ahead and put the documents together.
Speaker C:I think it's kind of hard sometimes to conceptualize some of these documents.
Speaker C:And it's my belief that the sooner I can get a product, a work product in front of a client so they can read through it, probably the quicker we'll get, you know, to a resolution, which is what they want.
Speaker C:You know, they came to be looking to have this kind of tied up.
Speaker C:And then once the clients get the drafts, sometimes we have a quick meeting, whether it's on the phone or in person to review certain aspects of it.
Speaker C:If anything's confusing or the legalese is, you know, a little too much, we can cut through some of that, talk about, you know, some of the decisions that they need to make.
Speaker C:And then usually you've got your last meeting would be the signing.
Speaker C:So you're sitting down and you're formally signing in front of witnesses, which isn't required in New York and in Pennsylvania, you know, you would formally sign those documents.
Speaker C:And then after they're signed, sometimes there's some additional signatures we got to get after the fact from other key players.
Speaker C:So sometimes there's that cleanup at the end.
Speaker A:What are you seeing as the biggest challenges that clients are facing?
Speaker A:So they're, they're coming in and maybe for their first time they're going to be meeting with you, you know, regarding the estate plan.
Speaker A:What's the biggest challenges that they're probably that you see repetitively?
Speaker C:I, I think probably getting organized and getting going.
Speaker C:As I already have said, it's very asset focused.
Speaker C:So clients getting their hands around what they actually have and how it's titled, sometimes that can be hard for clients to work through.
Speaker C:So I think that might be one of the big challenges is just kind of getting organized to get started.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're actually starting to work on a book about the whole process of death.
Speaker A:And from a planner's perspective, Working with people as somebody's diagnosed or passes away from the perspective of both the person who's diagnosed and the person who's going through it with them and talking about the estate planning and talking about how people are a lot of times afraid or there's something that's holding them back to procrastinating.
Speaker A:They don't have all the answers.
Speaker A:It's confusing.
Speaker A:Like you said earlier, if you talk to the wrong attorney who's not necessarily communicating in a way, they can understand it.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's overwhelming for people.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:And one of the things that we were talking about in one of the briefs with the book, one of the interviews that we were doing is.
Speaker A:Is how it can for some people who are very private or maybe a little bit insecure about what they have or what's going on.
Speaker A:It can be a little bit like undressing in front of a room full of people.
Speaker A:That's kind of what it can feel like.
Speaker A:It's like I'm very vulnerable now.
Speaker A:I'm exposing myself, and I'm not really certain what the person on the other.
Speaker A:What they're going to think or say or do.
Speaker A:And one of the things to realize with a good attorney, same thing with a good advisor, is that we've done it before for a lot of people, and I promise you, we've seen something crazier than whatever you think you have going on.
Speaker A:It's like going to a really, really good doctor, you know, who specializes in, you know, let's.
Speaker A:You name it, right?
Speaker A:Whatever they specialize in, let's say that they're a dermatologist.
Speaker A:They've probably seen some kind of skin issue worse than yours.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Don't be afraid.
Speaker A:You're there for help.
Speaker A:I think people a lot of times have that.
Speaker A:And I know we've had clients that have come in with millions of dollars and they said, well, we didn't think we could come to you earlier because we didn't have enough money.
Speaker A:And it's like, okay, well, stop thinking about.
Speaker A:Stop judging yourself compared to other people.
Speaker A:And then procrastination.
Speaker A:We see most often clients who have gone to an attorney, they get the drafts.
Speaker A:And I don't want to talk about the process yet because we're going to talk about that later.
Speaker A:But they get the drafts from you.
Speaker A:So you draft up, you know, here's what.
Speaker A:What we think you said, please look it over, make sure everything's spelled right, and we kind of have it structurally right.
Speaker A:Then they get overwhelmed at that part because sometimes there might be A blank.
Speaker A:And like, okay, you have to think about this contingent beneficiary or this backup executor or something.
Speaker A:And at that point they put it on the pile of papers on their desk and they're just kind of like, I don't know what to do, so I'm not going to do anything.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:One thing I tell clients a lot is we're going to do the best we can with what we know right now.
Speaker C:And I think sometimes you get some of these clients who want to have an end product that is going to be good for the rest of their life.
Speaker C:And there's so many changes that occur in life that sometimes they're taking on a test that it never really was meant to be.
Speaker C:You got to do the best you can with what we know now and the assets that we have now and the people that are involved now.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And not that you can't build some contingencies in there, but I think you could drive yourself crazy, you know, trying to.
Speaker A:What do they say?
Speaker A:Don't let good be the enemy of great.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like you need to get something.
Speaker A:And I, I think a lot of it's personality type.
Speaker A:I think that there's some, there's different people that sometimes just don't want to deal with it.
Speaker A:But normally by the time they get to the attorney, they've admitted they need to deal with it.
Speaker A:But then you have the type that needs to answer every question before they can do anything.
Speaker A:Like your engineering types.
Speaker A:A lot of times it's like, no, we need to answer most of the questions and the ones that we can't.
Speaker A:We need to create a fail safe for you and someday we'll figure out that other piece.
Speaker A:But until we figure out that other piece, we at least need 90% of this done.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So how could we maybe address.
Speaker A:If we just go back to the issue that you say is the most common on your end, which is just getting organized, are there ways that you've seen like, okay, so you, you send people your organizer.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:Is there any other kind of tidbits of, of suggestions or anything that you have with getting organized to come in and see an attorney?
Speaker C:Well, in all honesty, people who work usually with, with financial advisors like yourselves, they're often organized.
Speaker C:You know, they've had those conversations already with their planners about what they have.
Speaker C:So that's a help.
Speaker C:Also, especially this time of year when we're all starting to tackle our tax organizers.
Speaker C:I think tax time, you're kind of going through the same data anyway.
Speaker C:Maybe for different purposes, obviously, for estate planning, but, you know, now's a good time to think about it.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Pretty good at taxes, but I get the tax organizer still from my CPA and I'm looking at and going, there's 30 pages of questions on there, which is very similar to what you're.
Speaker A:Because I've seen your list before.
Speaker A:I've seen other.
Speaker A:Yeah, very similar to the fact finder that they're getting from your firms.
Speaker A:And if you work with a good financial advisor, especially if this is what they do, there's a lot of financial advisors say, I do estate planning.
Speaker A:It's like, yeah, okay, you sell stuff to people you know, or recommend it to an attorney.
Speaker A:But if the planner really does estate planning, they're going to help you draft up the outline and communicate with the attorney.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:I will say, you know, I've worked with plenty of your planners over at Seed, and you guys do help organize all that client information.
Speaker C:And, um, in fact, the last time I worked with Jessica Blake, you know, she just sent me everything I needed.
Speaker C:I didn't even need my organizer.
Speaker C:She had it all.
Speaker C:All put together.
Speaker C:So it was.
Speaker C:It was fantastic.
Speaker A:We're going to get bumper stickers to say, we work with Jess.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:That's what it should.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:You're paying an advisor to do estate planning.
Speaker A:They should be liaisoning with the estate planner and making sure that.
Speaker A:Because they're the ones who actually understand, like, we understand what you're looking for.
Speaker A:Somebody who's coming to you for the first time may not actually know.
Speaker A:And the other big piece of that, too, that, for instance, we do, is we also provide some of the projection material.
Speaker A:So a lot of times people go to an estate attorney and they'll say, this is what I have right now.
Speaker A:But you kind of do need to know, okay, you have that.
Speaker A:But are you getting a big inheritance down the road?
Speaker A:Are you spending a lot?
Speaker A:Are you saving a lot?
Speaker A:Like, you might have a million dollars now, but if we did a projection 30 years out, you could be at $5 million.
Speaker A:You kind of need to know that as might feel like that.
Speaker A:That empowers you as an attorney.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:And if you're missing that information, you have to somehow try to draw that out of the client.
Speaker A:Or maybe you're not.
Speaker A:You're not getting the whole picture.
Speaker A:And maybe you would have recommended some other things as well.
Speaker C:Definitely.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:Well, I'm gonna.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:I'm not gonna pick on the.
Speaker A:On.
Speaker A:On the industry today.
Speaker A:Can I ask.
Speaker B:Can I Ask you a question here?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is it going to pick on the industry?
Speaker B:No, no, no.
Speaker B:So you, so you talk about Jess, our industry.
Speaker B:I think Travis has done a really masterful job over the years with his own experience dealing with clients, teaching downstream.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Leading new planners on our team like this is best practices.
Speaker B:Maybe this was an area where we could have been more organized.
Speaker B:So for the next round, everyone's going to do it this way.
Speaker B:And so we've become really proficient with planners on this is the expectation from seed's behalf.
Speaker B:Dealing with professionals.
Speaker B:We want to be organized.
Speaker B:You lead a team, right.
Speaker B:You have attorneys of all different maturity levels and ages and experience.
Speaker B:What we talk about on the show all the time is I don't think people really understand the options that are available to them when it comes to their money and their financial planning.
Speaker B:So they just do whatever the professional says.
Speaker B:Have you had any experiences dealing with other attorneys on this team approach where maybe an attorney met with a couple or an individual, they thought they had a good idea, but then you reviewed case notes or met with them and said, did you also know they could do this?
Speaker B:Like there's got to be value on the attorney side from the strength of everybody working together.
Speaker B:And so I think one of Travis's questions, if you go to a professional that's a solo practitioner, they kind of do a little bit of everything.
Speaker B:They may be unfortunately limited in terms of what they know are available options.
Speaker B:So they'll give you the will health care proxy of attorney, but they may be missing.
Speaker B:Has there been anything neat that's come from your years of experience either professionally or with leading others that's just helped you teach downstream or like noticing things in case notes or in the organizer that maybe a younger attorney may not realize, but because of years, years of experience, you're like, hey, that's actually a bigger issue.
Speaker B:We should be talking about that.
Speaker C:Yeah, I, I, I.
Speaker C:One big area comes to mind with that question and that's understanding the dynamics of like elder law type issues, especially like skilled nursing home care with the Medicaid system.
Speaker C:In a, in an estate planning meeting, sometimes you select certain options, if you will, in your planning that set you up nicely to take care of yourself better later on.
Speaker C:So I would say that would be an example, you know, where experience can, even though you're coming in maybe as a 55 year old couple and you want to talk about, you know, getting a will in place or trust, but during that process you can have some of that added value of knowing you're Making certain selections that might help you with asset protection later on, for example.
Speaker C:So I think that is a good example.
Speaker A:We've seen that a lot too, especially with business owners.
Speaker A:Businesses are an interesting thing because you can establish a business in a way that it kind of operates like its own person.
Speaker A:And you can have an estate attorney that can handle all the estate stuff.
Speaker A:But baked into the business, into the operating agreements or however it's structured, or even standalone buy sell agreements, you can have things baked into it that trigger the business to do different things.
Speaker A:So you can, like, for instance, you can put in your will, give me.
Speaker A:Give my business to my spouse when I die.
Speaker A:But that business could be structured in a way that prohibits it from going to your spouse.
Speaker A:And it triggers outside of the will and outside of the whole probate process and everything.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The other issue too, that we've seen, and this is just an interesting thing, and I use this example a lot, but clients sometimes will.
Speaker A:Will come to the attorney and say, you know, I want to leave money to charity.
Speaker A:I want to leave $50,000 to United Way or something like that.
Speaker A:And we'll put it in, you know, you can put that in the will, leave them $50,000, and then they go and they change.
Speaker A:All their beneficiaries go to their spouse and then to their kids if their spouse isn't there.
Speaker A:Well, that means none of the money goes through the estate, so none of it gets to the will.
Speaker A:So none of it actually can do that.
Speaker A:So if there is something that accidentally sneaks through, like a 529 account or something, now all of a sudden that may be subject to the bequest for the charity, and now you've blown up your grandkids college fund because you don't understand how it works.
Speaker A:So training with a broader depth of knowledge and how some of these things work, I think can at least point to it and say, hey, you at least got to have that checked out over there, because those are where the pitfalls really come in.
Speaker A:Somebody thinks they've done really great planning, and maybe they had a great piece of planning done and had a wonderful attorney.
Speaker A:You know, Kristen set them up perfectly.
Speaker A:But, you know, they kind of checked out at the end about, hey, you got to check this, this and this box.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you know, and then they miss that part.
Speaker A:So, you know, and that's especially the small business part.
Speaker A:And we've worked with some of your small business attorneys.
Speaker A:Understanding how those work in the estate plan or outside of the estate plan, I think is really, really important.
Speaker A:And what you need for that, like, maybe you need a trust for that, maybe you don't.
Speaker A:Maybe you just need to, you know, look at who your shareholders are or your buy sell agreements internally and how you structure that.
Speaker A:But it's a big deal to get it right.
Speaker A:So I want to save everything else for our next episode.
Speaker A:We're going to do two episodes with you, Kristen.
Speaker A:Next episode.
Speaker A:We'll get into it much quicker because mostly because I won't stumble over myself with the intros because we got it down now.
Speaker A:It's good practice, this one.
Speaker A:But what we want to get into next episode is.
Speaker A:Or our next.
Speaker A:The episode.
Speaker B:Yeah, this is a podcast.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, is it.
Speaker A:But anyway, really talking about leading up to the estate administration so you're alive and you haven't passed away yet, that kind of journey.
Speaker A:Because there's a point where you can wait too long and now you can't do anything about it.
Speaker A:And then also after the fact, okay, death has happened and now what happens?
Speaker A:And I want to kind of cross over into that and share that with listeners so that they understand why this is so important.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker B:And Kirsten, this has been.
Speaker B:And the reason I asked my question as we bring this one to a close is I think a lot of our listeners, we did a whole episode on trust.
Speaker B:You know, I think we're not talking about the person that your spider sense goes off, you're sitting in front of and you know this is heading in the wrong direction.
Speaker B:I think there's a lot of people that are trying to do the right thing and they have good things put in place, but they just don't know why, what the grade is that they might be missing out on.
Speaker B:And it's people have a guy, they have a gal, but you want a professional because you operate a money business that's going to look at what you're doing and say, hey, I know we were going down this path, but there's something better we could be doing.
Speaker B:I think that's why people go to podcasts and they watch YouTube videos, is they want the secrets that people don't know.
Speaker B:And that comes from experience and teaming.
Speaker B:So I think this is going to be really exciting.
Speaker B:Kind of get into this next episode, kind of how this all works.
Speaker B:So as always, thanks for stopping by.
Speaker B:Ditch the suits.
Speaker B:Travis and I, it's a lot of fun having guests on the show.
Speaker B:Kristen, you rocked episode one.
Speaker B:Friends, family, come on back.
Speaker B:Check her out for episode number two.
Speaker B:We're have a lot of fun.
Speaker B:Thanks for checking out Ditch the Suits.
Speaker B:Be sure to write a review or drop a comment about this episode.
Speaker B:And if you want more like this, head over to ditchesuits.com you can send us a message and get in touch.
Speaker B:Let us know how we can help and be sure to share any topics you'd be interested in having us cover on the show.
Speaker B:We're here to help you get the most from your money in life.
Speaker B:Thanks for being our guest and checking out Ditch the Suits.
